Episcopal Church (ECUSA): Still angry about a gay bishop from 2003. What is the big deal about a gay bishop...He was a gay priest for years? Unfaithful priests are okay...But not bishops?
Presbyterian Church (USA): A clause which would allow for ministers of the Gospel to not have "chastity and fidelity" standards? Okay..Ministers do not have to be loyal to their wife (or husband in the PC(USA)...Based on "conscience reasons"? Disgusting.
American Baptist Churches (USA): Gay churches are angry because as Baptists they are not held to any creed or standard. Hm. They are right...This is the problem with non-confessional congregationalism.
Come Lord Jesus in judgment and reform! Make your bride holy, pure, and spotless.
Mainline Mess
23 comments:
The bride of Christ is already holy, pure, and spotless right now because of the work of Jesus Christ alone for His people alone. It is written, "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." - Rev 14:4. And, "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight" - Col 1:22. And, "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." - Eph 5:27, etc, etc. The Episcopal church, and the Presbyterian church, and the American Baptist church, etc, etc, are not the bride of Christ, but false prophet whore churches. What made you think that they were a part of the bride of Christ!? The Bible says, "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." - Rev 18:4. The Bible never calls for "reform" within the whore churches, but a coming out. Christ has already come and made His bride holy, pure, and spotless.
Avoiding Sexual Sin
1 Corinthians 6 vs9,10 NLV
"Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in The Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves!Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshippers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers---none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God."
Maki,
You will not be winning souls for Christ with your nasty judgemental retoric.We must correct each other in LOVE. Nates blog is a great tool in my search for truth.One truth for me is that the HOLY SPIRIT in me causes me great humility.It causes me to not stand in judgement of others.
The "coming out" terminology is interesting in the light that what is COMING OUT is the churches acceptance of blatant sexual perversion. While this requires correction we are not in a position to cast judgement on entire body of believers.
Maki
The church of Laodocia was a church that could be described as a whore church. You do not have a proper ecclesiology due to your leader's distortions of Christianity.
How and who determines a churches ecclesiology is correct? Is this a matter of opinion, a matter of how scriptures are interpreted?Is the term "whore" to describe a church theology lingo? Please enlightened me. I fear not the appearance of stupidity... only the state of ....
Ecclesiology is the doctrine of the church. There is a broad and vivid church-theology in the bible. The bible teaches us a lot about the church and what the church should look like as well as how she should function. It is not a matter of preference although many see it that way today.
The term whore is a biblical term for a person or church that has left the first love of Christ to go after other loves...much like an unfaithful bride will search for other men's love...at times the Christian or the Church will act as a whore. Sad but true.
Nate,
My leader is Jesus Christ. Furthermore, the "proper ecclesiology" of the body of Christ is separation from all whore churches, as my leader has commanded His people (Ro 16:17-18, 2Cor 6:14-17, Eph 5:7-12, etc). Christians do not speak peace to unbelievers. Lastly, you stated that, "at times the Christian or the Church will act as a whore". You defined what a whore is when you said, "The term whore is a biblical term for a person or church that has left the first love of Christ to go after other loves". So you believe that a Christian or the Church can at times leave Christ and go after false Christs? Plainly, this is blasphemy. Christians do not EVER follow the voice of strangers (Jn 10:4-5). Christians do not EVER not abide in the doctrine of Christ (2Jn 1:9). Christians do not EVER bring forth evil fruit (Mat 7:18), Christians do not EVER profess a false gospel (2Cor 4:3-6), etc, etc. If a Christian acted like a whore, then he or she would NOT be a Christian.
Maki
Any sin is acting as a whore against our Lord who has commanded purity and perfection.
Israel went whoring after false gods often, yet God loving called her back under her wings as a hen does her chicks. I pray that YOU never sin to prove that you were NEVER a Christian.
Besides poor ecclesiology you also have poor soteriology as well.
I would love to see this perfectly faithful church that you are a part of....ah...to be sin free and in the state of glorification.
I will wait until we are in the church triumphant.
Nate,
Any sin is not like acting like a whore. Scripture does not say this. On the contrary, Scripture says, "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." - Rev 14:4. God's people are virgins (i.e. they are NOT whores).
So you believe that the Israelites that went whoring after other gods were regenerate?
You said that I have, "poor soteriology as well". What are you referring to? What are you basing your comments on? I believe that God has promised to save His people based on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone totally apart from the sinners efforts.
You said, "I would love to see this perfectly faithful church that you are a part of....ah...to be sin free and in the state of glorification." I never said anything about being without sin. Can you prove that I said this, or are you just making it up?
The sad truth is that at times Christians do sin and go against this:
Christians do not EVER follow the voice of strangers (Jn 10:4-5). Christians do not EVER not abide in the doctrine of Christ (2Jn 1:9). Christians do not EVER bring forth evil fruit (Mat 7:18), Christians do not EVER profess a false gospel (2Cor 4:3-6), etc, etc. If a Christian acted like a whore, then he or she would NOT be a Christian.
These are all experiences of the Christian faith. The Psalms are full of this!
BTW who is Gary Carpenter? What is the afiliation?
Whois: www.outsidethecamp.org :
Marc Carpenter
Sovereign Redeemer Assembly
West Rutland, VT
5. When God regenerates and converts a sinner, indwelling sin is not totally removed from a believer. A believer continues to sin against God all the days of his life, and he continues to be ashamed of and to repent of his sin. But a believer's sin in no way forfeits his interest in Jesus Christ nor annuls God's covenant with him. Scripture rejects the lie that man may be freed from indwelling sin in this life; anyone who says he has no sin is an unbeliever.
(Per the website's confessional statement that Maki professes.)
Nate,
I find it interesting that you never defend your position. You only state your position, and then when asked about your position (or about the claims you make), you just state your position again, and ignore questions. Anyway, you said,
"The sad truth is that at times Christians do sin and go against this:
maki: 'Christians do not EVER follow the voice of strangers (Jn 10:4-5). Christians do not EVER not abide in the doctrine of Christ (2Jn 1:9). Christians do not EVER bring forth evil fruit (Mat 7:18), Christians do not EVER profess a false gospel (2Cor 4:3-6), etc, etc. If a Christian acted like a whore, then he or she would NOT be a Christian.'"
Did you actually read the Scripture verses I gave in reference to my position? Let's go over them together.
John 10:4-5
"4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers."
Who do Christians not follow?
1John 1:9
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
What is said of those who do not abide in the doctrine of Christ?
Matthew 7:18
"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."
A good tree cannot do what?
2Corinthians 4:3
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost"
What is the state of those whom the gospel is hid?
Lastly, you asked, "Who is Gary Carpenter? What is the afiliation?
I do not know who this person is.
Penumbra,
Marc Carpenter is the author or www.outsidethecamp.org. Sovereign Redeemer Assembly is the name of his church, which takes place in his home, and contains roughly 10 people -- and that including himself and family.
Thanks for bring up the portion from the Christian Confession of Faith that you did. I do believe in everything within that Confession as it is based entirely on Scripture. Furthermore, this proves that I never said that Christians are without sin. I believe Scripture, which says that, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." - 1Jn 1:8. Again, Nate could not prove that I made the claim of being sinless. If I, or anyone, made the claim of being without sin, then I, or anyone, would be an unregenerate God-hater.
Maki
I am sure that you do not like labels....but what would you label yourself as? Hypercalvinist?
Are you a Camping-ite?
The man that I mentioned is the pastor of the church that Penumbra mentions....you link them.
Let me ask you a question:
I understand the way in which God sees his bride (through the propitiatory death of Christ) is one that is spotless and without blemish; but how does the visible bride always WALK in this?
At times the visible church sins right? Just as Christians sin.
Sin is walking contrary to the revealed will of God: at times the church will sin as a body.
Here is a syllogism.
Tell me if this is correct:
Major premise: The bride of Christ never brings forth corrupt fruit (sin)
Minor premise: I at times bring forth corrupt fruit (sin)
Conclusion: I am not a member of the body of Christ.
Is this your view of the church? Is this how you see the bride (visible) or do you see a visible bride that has parts of greater and lesser degrees of faithfulness?
PS: I deleted my last post. I accidentally posted it when it was only half completed.
Nate asked,
"I am sure that you do not like labels....but what would you label yourself as?"
Christian.
"The man that I mentioned is the pastor of the church that Penumbra mentions....you link them."
That man that you mentioned was Gary Carpenter. Again, I do not know who this person is.
"Let me ask you a question:"
(Ok, you're good at that...not so good at answering them though.)
"I understand the way in which God sees his bride (through the propitiatory death of Christ) is one that is spotless and without blemish; but how does the visible bride always WALK in this?
At times the visible church sins right? Just as Christians sin.
Yes, a believer continues to sin against God all the days of his life, and he continues to be ashamed of and to repent of his sin.
"Here is a syllogism.
Tell me if this is correct:
Major premise: The bride of Christ never brings forth corrupt fruit (sin)
Minor premise: I at times bring forth corrupt fruit (sin)
Conclusion: I am not a member of the body of Christ.
Is this your view of the church? Is this how you see the bride (visible) or do you see a visible bride that has parts of greater and lesser degrees of faithfulness?"
Lots of questions, but I will answer them. I agree with the conclusion of your syllogism...you are not a member of the bride of Christ. Why? You admit that you bring forth evil (i.e. corrupt) fruit. Jesus said of His people, "A good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit..." Now, before you go and say that Christians will sin, I have already told you that I believe that a Christian will sin, in fact, all the days of his life. This is NO WAY contradicts what Jesus said. Jesus is referring to belief in a false gospel. You believe that a Christian will at times act like a whore, which means, according to you, to leave their first love of Christ to go after other loves.
Lastly, the bride of Christ does not have, "lesser degrees of faithfulness". An unfaithful bride would be a what?
As you may have guessed, I am Presbytrian. That would, I am sure fall under the "Hall of Heterodoxy" for you, but nonetheless I see this as the most faithful Christianity.
Here is what we believe concerning the Church:
Westminster Confession:Chapter XXV
I. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all.[1]
II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6]
III. Unto this catholic visible Church Christ has given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world: and does, by His own presence and Spirit, according to His promise, make them effectual thereunto.[7]
IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible.[8] And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.[9]
V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;[10] and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan.[11] Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.[12]
VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14]
1] EPH 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him. 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. COL 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[2] 1CO 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours. 1CO 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. PSA 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. REV 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. ROM 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
[3] 1CO 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. ACT 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. EZE 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, 21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? ROM 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. GEN 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
[4] MAT 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind. ISA 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
[5] EPH 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God. 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.
[6] ACT 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
[7] 1CO 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. EPH 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. ISA 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.
[8] ROM 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. REV 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
[9] (REV 2-3 throughout) 1CO 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.
[10] 1CO 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. MAT 13:24-30, 47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind.
[11] REV 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. ROM 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[12] MAT 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. PSA 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed. 102:28 The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee. MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
[13] COL 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. EPH 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church.
[14]MAT 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 2TH 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. REV 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Maki and Nate-
I think that besides the fact that Maki thinks everyone but his small church are whores, that you 2 really are on the same page (sort of).
You both agree Christians sin. What is the problem? Do you both have different understandings of the meaning of WHORE?? I think Maki takes the definition to the fullest degree. Nate sees the Church, the Bride as whores in that they sin. Nate is humble in being aware that he falls short of being sinless before Christ. Nate does not claim that he ever leaves Christ and forgets his True Love. He simply is acknowledging the fact that true Christians admittedly sin and fall short OFTEN. Thank GOD for the shedding of Christ's blood so that we CAN approach Him in repentance and be forgiven.
MAKI states to Nate:
"...you are not a member of the bride of Christ. Why? You admit that you bring forth evil (i.e. corrupt) fruit."
My understanding of that is that if ONE sins then ONE is not a believer. But, you said Chrisitians sin. What are you talking about? Nate said that the corrupt fruit is defined as SIN. I think there is a misunderstanding here.....
And, you (Maki) seem to be attempting to argue for argument's sake. It is pretty obvious that the definitions of WHORE are different for both of you. So, the whole conversation is invalid.
Nate- let's move on....
Maki
Reading over the outside the camp site you all have some teachings that are good. I think your confession of faith and your essays do not show the same spirit though. The confession is banal. There is little there...but your articles are filled with interesting tid bits. I have never heard so many judgments on so many people in my life! Wow!
Though I appreciate your desire to see a pure bride, I do not think that you are going to find what you are looking for on this blog.
For others to get a better idea of the "grace" that this man and his friends promote see these articles that he links: All are condemned but him and a few buddies (so it seems).
http://www.outsidethecamp.org/articles.htm
To all: For starters, there arises a big problem if you interpret the “fruit” in Mat 7:18 as sin. Why? This is because Jesus said, “A good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit…” – Mat 7:18. Do you understand what Jesus is saying? A good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit. If you interpret fruit as sin, which I do not do, then you must believe that a Christian cannot bring forth sin. Now, do you interpret fruit as sin? If yes, then do you interpret CANNOT as CAN?
Let me briefly comment on what Jesus said when He said, “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” – Mat 7:20. Jesus states that by the fruits of the false prophets Christians will know they are false. How do Christians know false prophets are false? Is it by their sin? Not necessarily, because Christians do sin. Is it by their good works? The “fruit” cannot be good works since Jesus says next, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many WONDERFUL WORKS?” – Mat 7:22. So, how do Christians identify false prophets? It is by their doctrine.
The picture of the fruit is an analogy to doctrine. Good fruit, is right gospel doctrine; whereas, bad fruit, is false gospel doctrine. A Christian cannot bring forth a false gospel. This was my position from the beginning. Do you believe this? Here is an example, "Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees." - Mat 16:6. What is this leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? What was the fruit by which the disciplines KNEW the Pharisees and the Sadducees to be false prophets? It is later explained, "...he [Jesus] bade them [His disciples] not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the DOCTRINE of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. - Mat 16:12. The fruit of the Pharisees and the Sadducees was false gospel doctrine and Christians knew they were false. It is written,
1John 1:9
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."
What is said of those who do not abide in the doctrine of Christ?
Matthew Henry sees this verse as both doctrine as well as lifestyle. The first is what you are emphasising and I am emphasising the second.
Here is what he says. (For my regular readers notice how right doctrine will effect the way one acts and lives):
[1.] By the fruits of their persons, their words and actions, and the course of their conversation. If you would know whether they be right or not, observe how they live; their works will testify for them or against them. The scribes and Pharisees sat in Moses's chair, and taught the law, but they were proud, and covetous, and false, and oppressive, and therefore Christ warned him disciples to beware of them and of their leaven, Mk. 12:38. If men pretend to be prophets and are immoral, that disproves their pretensions; those are no true friends to the cross of Christ, whatever they profess, whose God is their belly, and whose mind earthly things, Phil. 3:18, 19. Those are not taught nor sent of the holy God, whose lives evidence that they are led by the unclean spirit. God puts the treasure into earthen vessels, but not into such corrupt vessels: they may declare God's statutes, but what have they to do to declare them?
[2.] By the fruits of their doctrine; their fruits as prophets: not that this is the only way, but it is one way, of trying doctrines, whether they be of God or not. What do they tend to do? What affections and practices will they lead those into, that embrace them? If the doctrine be of God, it will tend to promote serious piety, humility, charity, holiness, and love, with other Christian graces; but if, on the contrary, the doctrines these prophets preach have a manifest tendency to make people proud, worldly, and contentious, to make them loose and careless in their conversations, unjust or uncharitable, factious or disturbers of the public peace; if it indulge carnal liberty, and take people off from governing themselves and their families by the strict rules of the narrow way, we may conclude, that this persuasion comes not of him that calleth us, Gal. 5:8. This wisdom is from above, James 3:15. Faith and a good conscience are held together, 1 Tim. 1:19; 3:9. Note, Doctrines of doubtful disputation must be tried by graces and duties of confessed certainty: those opinions come not from God that lead to sin: but if we cannot know them by their fruits, we must have recourse to the great touchstone, to the law, and to the testimony; do they speak according to that rule?
A word from a traditional Presbyterian within the PC(USA):
As our Book of Order now stands we hold all leaders to the biblical standard in sexual behavior. It seems that you imply that we do not.
Now there are many of us who try to change what we uphold through means of our polity, but so far they have failed in this agenda.
You might have problems with us in other areas, but in this one, we stand with Scriptural standards.
Classic Presby
I never said that this is what the PC(USA) has taught, only that it is up for vote in 2006.
If this is even up for vote it shows a deeper problem.
As the eating of the fruit was a mere expression of Adam and Eve's internal rebellion; so to this is an expression of how fallen this body has become.
I pray for her repentance and that she will again hold to the standards that she claims.
Nate,
As do we, who are the "faithful remnant" in the PC(USA) do as well!
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