tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post112952213383553956..comments2023-09-20T04:42:34.757-07:00Comments on presbyterian thoughts: Family Worship II: CatechismNPEhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05876228480961585856noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129755902801205692005-10-19T14:05:00.000-07:002005-10-19T14:05:00.000-07:00Nate,What a great discussion and thoughts.I love t...Nate,<BR/>What a great discussion and thoughts.<BR/>I love this - I'll be on here more.<BR/>My daughter is 23 months and knows questions 1 - 3. The most fun is teaching her what goes along with God making all things. After dinner a few weeks ago my husband said to my daughter, "Mommy made us a great dinner, didn't she?" and my daughter in one year old reasoning said "God" because he had used the word "Made" which is what God does. We don't use that word anymore - Mommy only fixes dinner - because indeed God made "All things" and we can go around and point to and name all the things God made.<BR/>On a slightly different note. I was in high school (at a Christian School) when we were in a large group discussion of things and we were asked "what is sin?" and seeing that everyone sat there trying to think of an answer while this very smart Baptist questioned us - I replied with the S.C. answer and then was able to back it up with the Scripture proofs from it. <BR/>The Catechism is very useful and should be learned by all!<BR/>Two related books, one is a Memorization book published by Paul Settle - he mixes in Catechism, hymns and scripture from ages 3 - 18. A great book!<BR/>The other is homeschooling curriculum by Covenant Home - they have some great materials for young (an ABC learning with Catechism) and older ( a high school curriculum on Calvin's Institutes). Check them out www.covenanthome.com<BR/><BR/>Grace & PeaceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129693125744288892005-10-18T20:38:00.000-07:002005-10-18T20:38:00.000-07:00Breaking News:THE WEE PAPIST CATECHUMEN HAS REFORM...Breaking News:<BR/>THE WEE PAPIST CATECHUMEN HAS REFORMED HIS WAYS! <BR/>ARTICLE AT: <BR/>drollflood.blogspot.com<BR/>(Notliberal, Esq.; esp. you have got to see this!)Legacy Userhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14806196927007609307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129687181070845452005-10-18T18:59:00.000-07:002005-10-18T18:59:00.000-07:00I wish that when I was saved 10 years ago that Sch...I wish that when I was saved 10 years ago that Schwertley would have pushed me to read the catechism instead of advanced theology. Having gone through this stuff in recent years I see how important it is to understanding the gospel. I can see where it's important to focus on this stuff with children. They need to understand this stuff and at the same time develop a love of God.<BR/><BR/>As for that kid, he needs to dress like a proper gentleman. Either wear a kilt or get a proper pair of trousers on.steveandjannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00347954290352661635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129680039859485992005-10-18T17:00:00.000-07:002005-10-18T17:00:00.000-07:00Marion,Concerning the idea that "a child must firs...Marion,<BR/><BR/>Concerning the idea that "a child must first know the gospel" is exactly what a catechism does. It teaches the basics of the faith (both shorter as well as Heidelberg) for the purpose that when God converts the heart of the child they will have a BASIS of theological knowledge already under their belt. <BR/><BR/>The basics of the faith deal with a lot of things that our Reformed forefathers thought were important to teach our children. Some of these things are not considered important today..but why would our forefathers consider them to be important?<BR/><BR/>As far as teaching them the basics of the the bible and biblical stories..this is the aim of the catechism. It gives categories for little minds to think in. <BR/><BR/>I find it sad when Reformed people begin to lose care about our catechism. Your own father, Rev. Lanning, has written an allegory about how liberalism overtakes Reformed churches when THEY BEGIN TO LESSEN THE IMPORTANCE OF THE CREEDS AND CONFESSIONS. <BR/><BR/>I too, think that the scriptures are what are essentially important and teaching the catechism enhances this view!NPEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05876228480961585856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129672632327110612005-10-18T14:57:00.000-07:002005-10-18T14:57:00.000-07:00Shawn:"Knowledge - raw data memorized"-Would you m...Shawn:<BR/>"Knowledge - raw data memorized"<BR/>-Would you make distinctions in what is meant by knowledge as well as the means to getting it?<BR/><BR/> "He is Birn. This is a 18th century Italian poster that was an add for a Roman Catholic Catechism.<BR/>(Of course, in Kuyperian fashion, we have brought it into our sphere...)"<BR/>-Would this be circular reasoning?<BR/><BR/>-We won't 'skirt' the issue but we will Ad-DRESS it, this was something that was common for Europeans to be wearing earlier on in history and aprons too. Scots still do it...Legacy Userhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14806196927007609307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129671709342931982005-10-18T14:41:00.000-07:002005-10-18T14:41:00.000-07:00Don't you think a child should understand the gosp...Don't you think a child should understand the gospel first before we teach them anything else? We should make sure they are saved before they understand more advanced theology. <BR/>I do commend Reformed Christians for teaching children theology. I was raised on it and I understood doctrine as a child that my friends don't even understand as an adult. Teaching catechism is important but I don't think it should over shadow scripture memorization and an understanding of Bible Stories.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129658951210681772005-10-18T11:09:00.000-07:002005-10-18T11:09:00.000-07:00He is Birn. This is a 18th century Italian poster ...He is Birn. This is a 18th century Italian poster that was an add for a Roman Catholic Catechism.<BR/><BR/>(Of course, in Kuyperian fashion, we have brought it into our sphere...or in Benny Hinnistic fashion...we have named and claimed it!)<BR/><BR/>Soli Fide!NPEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05876228480961585856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129650133835987342005-10-18T08:42:00.000-07:002005-10-18T08:42:00.000-07:00Completely off topic, is that little boy on the ca...Completely off topic, is that little boy on the catechism picture wearing a skirt?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129645596189912662005-10-18T07:26:00.000-07:002005-10-18T07:26:00.000-07:00roll - great comments re: the Binding nature of th...roll - great comments re: the Binding nature of the Truth in the Standards.<BR/><BR/>As for the 6 year old, certainly we are dealing more with a level of maturity, than an age. There are short simple concise answers that even young are able to understand (grasping concepts).<BR/><BR/>Mark...<I>It's much like teaching them math - if they can tell you that 2 + 2 = 4 but can't explain why, then they haven't really learned anything.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't mean to harp on you, but to say they haven't learned anything is false. They have learned that 2 + 2 = 4. In learning there are 3 stages according to the Trivium.<BR/><BR/>Knowledge - raw data memorized.<BR/>Understanding - grasping the concepts of the raw data, and being able to logically compare and contrast ideas.<BR/>Wisdom - being able to teach and apply understanding.<BR/><BR/>What 6 year old can tell you why 2 +2 = 4, (let alone many teenagers and adults.)<BR/><BR/>But they have gained much knowledge if they have mastered the tables and charts, and raw data - do not underestimate this because you have a loftier goal in mond for them.<BR/><BR/>Thanksshawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04022908066527714437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129605290799352512005-10-17T20:14:00.000-07:002005-10-17T20:14:00.000-07:00They may or may not be able to articulate their ow...They may or may not be able to articulate their own answer. I think that parents are called to teach the Bible to their children and explain what it means, so the same concept applies to the catechism as well. It's much like teaching them math - if they can tell you that 2 + 2 = 4 but can't explain why, then they haven't really learned anything.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06229664869019275181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129604885741607582005-10-17T20:08:00.000-07:002005-10-17T20:08:00.000-07:00In one sense, a person having a Biblical confessio...In one sense, a person having a Biblical confession and not learning to demonstrate them from Scripture would be more culpable than a Papist on grounds that the first has been given more.Legacy Userhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14806196927007609307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129604612230801782005-10-17T20:03:00.000-07:002005-10-17T20:03:00.000-07:00"But maybe as early as 6 a child is able to explai..."But maybe as early as 6 a child is able to explain in their own words what Postmillenialism is - for that is what we pray for in the 2nd petition. "<BR/>-Maybe if they could do this at age 6, they also could be self conscious about their reasons for interpreting a text the way they do, and distiguish a zeugma, synechdoche, litotes, etc.<BR/>-Also in the matter at hand, much emphasis has been put on distinguishing our Catechisms from the Word of God. It is a valid point, however the statement of truth in the 3 forms of unity and Westminster standards is the same truth as in Scripture and is morally binding. Note though that those very same confessional standards are vehement in having the confessing member derive their beliefs from Scripture, demonstrating them from Scripture.Legacy Userhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14806196927007609307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129602662244458162005-10-17T19:31:00.000-07:002005-10-17T19:31:00.000-07:00Im sure we would agree when it came to a certain a...Im sure we would agree when it came to a certain age level (maturity level).<BR/><BR/>It is appropriate to teach kids to begin catechism as early as they are able to speak, yet I would not expect them to be able to give me in their own words the answer to:<BR/>Q. 102. What do we pray for in the second petition?<BR/><BR/>But maybe as early as 6 a child is able to explain in their own words what Postmillenialism is - for that is what we pray for in the 2nd petition.shawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04022908066527714437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129601143446484512005-10-17T19:05:00.000-07:002005-10-17T19:05:00.000-07:00Shawn, I think kids can learn what it means on a f...Shawn, I think kids can learn what it means on a fundamental level. One wouldn't expect them to have an in-depth knowledge, of course, but they can grasp the basic idea of what's being said. Kids are a lot brighter than they're given credit for, I think.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06229664869019275181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129593812990540882005-10-17T17:03:00.000-07:002005-10-17T17:03:00.000-07:00I think that simply memorizing it is useless. If t...<I>I think that simply memorizing it is useless. If they don't know what it means, they may as well not learn it at all. There is also the danger of emphasizing the catechism over the Bible, which does happen a fair amount in Dutch Reformed circles. (Not as much as reported, though.)</I><BR/><BR/>Mark, I'm dure you mean if you do not know what it means when you get older, and more able to handle the rational aspects of the catechism.<BR/><BR/>It is a well known fact that you have children memorize large portions of facts, so that when they become older, and learn how to connect ideas and make logical deductions/inductions, they have this large depot pf facts in memory. This aids in the logical connection.<BR/><BR/>It's all trivium-based education.shawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04022908066527714437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129583984813920472005-10-17T14:19:00.000-07:002005-10-17T14:19:00.000-07:00We started Joshy with a few questions taken from t...We started Joshy with a few questions taken from the Children's Catechism as soon as he was able to repeat after us. We've since added more simple questions as they've pertained to what we were teaching him in family worship or things he picked up from listening to sermons. When he turned two we began question 1 of the Shorter Catechism along with the scripture proof. We seek to apply what he learning to things we do on a daily basis and I think he's getting it. In fact, a couple of weeks ago he was trying to get his baby sister to repeat 1 Corinthians 10:31 after him and then as he took a bite of an apple in front of her he said, "Yook, Emmy! I can gwo-fy God when I eat diss app-o!"Mandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10134058182195724878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129565351712865582005-10-17T09:09:00.000-07:002005-10-17T09:09:00.000-07:00I'm starting out with the Children's Catechism. M...I'm starting out with the Children's Catechism. My 16 month old knows "Who made you?" "God" and is learning #2. I think that we will start on the Westminster shorter when she can actually say the words. I'm looking forward to re-memorizing it, as I have forgotten a lot of it from my childhood. I doubt that we will finish the other one because I think of it as an introduction to memorization.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14603359.post-1129522657728820522005-10-16T21:17:00.000-07:002005-10-16T21:17:00.000-07:00My younger siblings are currently learning the Wes...My younger siblings are currently learning the Westminster shorter. They learn one question a week or thereabouts, memorizing it and then having it expounded in a book Dad reads during family devotions after dinner. It's a good system, methinks, as it lets them not only learn the catechism but also what it means.<BR/><BR/>I think that simply memorizing it is useless. If they don't know what it means, they may as well not learn it at all. There is also the danger of emphasizing the catechism over the Bible, which does happen a fair amount in Dutch Reformed circles. (Not as much as reported, though.)<BR/><BR/>As for age, I think it depends on the child. I'd say start as soon as possible, once their skills are up to it. I see no reason not to learn the longer catechism, kids can handle more than they're given credit for. Of course, if one teaches them the Heidelberg this problem disappears... but they could learn both catechisms too.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06229664869019275181noreply@blogger.com